(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:2]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]
PW[willzhang]PB[willzhang]WR[9d]BR[9d]DT[2006-06-13]PC[The Kiseido Go Server (KGS) at http://kgs.kiseido.com/]C[DevilGo [12k\]: will :)
azzwort [25k?\]: so is this the review?
choubi [13k\]: hi Will
]
(;AW[nc][qf]AB[pd]C[Shibuya [15k?\]: hello will
willzhang [9d\]: "Basic shapes of double approach to 4-4"
Shibuya [15k?\]: ni hao mao
Karamfil [14k\]: the most hated pincer :)
willzhang [9d\]: just a small lecture to help people
chrpa [6k\]: hello
Shibuya [15k?\]: wo men dou ai ni
choubi [13k\]: no sound ?
Druft [10k\]: btw is this audio or text lesson ? :o
SupRAS [11k\]: hi
willzhang [9d\]: test soon
azzwort [25k?\]: hes white and black who will won???!
Jiraya2 [8k\]: hi
Shibuya [15k?\]: i won
azzwort [25k?\]: hey mibyur
Shibuya [15k?\]: chinese rocks
azzwort [25k?\]: dimyur **
Shibuya [15k?\]: china rocks 
Shibuya [15k?\]: wooo
Karamfil [14k\]: please stop talking nosence...
azzwort [25k?\]: Asia is better
azzwort [25k?\]: kk
willzhang [9d\]: sound test now :)
Shibuya [15k?\]: its non-sense
Shibuya [15k?\]: -.-
whendrik [12k\]: hello
chrpa [6k\]: hello
erguvani [5k\]: hi
Shibuya [15k?\]: ni hao ni hao
whendrik [12k\]: :D
fhayashi [11k\]: i hear you
azzwort [25k?\]: what is this i cant here it.....
Shibuya [15k?\]: mei wen ti
whendrik [12k\]: I have you but quality is not best
azzwort [25k?\]: o its japense?
Karamfil [14k\]: the quality is bad
whendrik [12k\]: i have trouble to hear you...
lovehana [8k\]: will, i can hear motorcycle sound
Druft [10k\]: kinda bad quality of sound
chrpa [6k\]: i hear bad
Shibuya [15k?\]: zhong guo ren speak zhong guo hua
azzwort [25k?\]: lol <-- is dumb and does not have a mic
Shibuya [15k?\]: not japanese
whendrik [12k\]: Hello
lovehana [8k\]: Some fighting, arguing
azzwort [25k?\]: k
erokay [-\]: hello
Shibuya [15k?\]: mei wen ti
erokay [-\]: it's ok
choubi [13k\]: houston we have a problem !
fhayashi [11k\]: i can hear you when you speak loudly
erguvani [5k\]: there is a loud noise
lovehana [8k\]: Does anybody quarrel?
Hu [13k?\]: Lots of booming and breath noise.
azzwort [25k?\]: WHAT?
chrpa [6k\]: yeah, loud noice, not good
Hu [13k?\]: sound is distorted too.
lovehana [8k\]: Take the microphone far away the speaker , will
lovehana [8k\]: sound will get better
whendrik [12k\]: I dont think the speaker are the source of the problem
willzhang [9d\]: I think I need a reboot of my pc
azzwort [25k?\]: take mic away from speaker
choubi [13k\]: maybe gain too high ?
lovehana [8k\]: At least 1m far
willzhang [9d\]: 1 moment ,sorry
whendrik [12k\]: you get echo instead of nouse
chrpa [6k\]: ok
chrpa [6k\]: no problem
ir [5k\]: willzhang escaped!
Karamfil [14k\]: ^^
erokay [-\]: he is a escaper?
erokay [-\]: lool
erokay [-\]: :P
azzwort [25k?\]: lol
Skalman [11k?\]: nah, hes prob restarting his comp or something
Karamfil [14k\]: shh metin :)
Shibuya [15k?\]: ??
Shibuya [15k?\]: je kit ola?
erokay [-\]: what is it Karamfil
Shibuya [15k?\]: kula opint?
azzwort [25k?\]: k iam whach darkmage[9d\] vs lexus[9d\] replay ill upload it to this room?
azzwort [25k?\]: nvm dude back
willzhang [9d\]: I am bakc ,hi
Shibuya [15k?\]: ??
fire1 [15k\]: hi
azzwort [25k?\]: hi
erokay [-\]: hello
choubi [13k\]: gain is too high
Shibuya [15k?\]: mei shi mei shi
Skalman [11k?\]: turn down the outputvolume abit will
choubi [13k\]: try reducing gain in KGS preferences menu ?
Vidigiani [20k\]: very distorted
Shibuya [15k?\]: bu hao
azzwort [25k?\]: yes yes
Hu [13k?\]: Too loud, distorted.
Hu [13k?\]: Have you tried the microphone test in Set Preferences in the File menu?
azzwort [25k?\]: still now 2
Shibuya [15k?\]: bu xing 
willzhang [9d\]: very bad?
Hu [13k?\]: Very bad.
erokay [-\]: no no 
choubi [13k\]: very weird distorsion !
fire1 [15k\]: yes
fire1 [15k\]: bad
Shibuya [15k?\]: bu shi ta hao
erokay [-\]: it's ok
Shimanara [9k\]: yeah :(
Skalman [11k?\]: yes, hardly audible
azzwort [25k?\]: cant hear  u now
azzwort [25k?\]: ?!
Shibuya [15k?\]: he left because u guys didnt give him support!!
Shibuya [15k?\]: -.-
erokay [-\]: abi bi başlayamadı
erokay [-\]: :(
fire1 [15k\]: :)
Shibuya [15k?\]: its not his fault that sound isnt good
Shibuya [15k?\]: show a bit of support guys
chrpa [6k\]: senseilibrary?patience :)
fire1 [15k\]: acelen var galıba
fire1 [15k\]: erokay
fire1 [15k\]: :P
whendrik [12k\]: I think the microphone is not working
erokay [-\]: yok acelem
erokay [-\]: :P
erokay [-\]: ehue
fire1 [15k\]: hadı hadı
Shibuya [15k?\]: he need ur support
fire1 [15k\]: kızlarmı cagırıyor kanka
choubi [13k\]: o_O
erokay [-\]: heyecan 
fire1 [15k\]: ehehe
erokay [-\]: işte
erokay [-\]: :P
fire1 [15k\]: :P
erokay [-\]: ehuhe
erokay [-\]: bi an önce başlasın istiyom
choubi [13k\]: welcome back Will
Shibuya [15k?\]: lets each donate $1 to help him
Karamfil [14k\]: wow chinese... turkish... speak english guys
willzhang [9d\]: I tested it ,not good
choubi [13k\]: ok
choubi [13k\]: text then ?
willzhang [9d\]: seems it's because of the internet connection
whendrik [12k\]: Internet connection?
choubi [13k\]: :(
chrpa [6k\]: i see
Shibuya [15k?\]: xing la
chrpa [6k\]: ok :) good
azzwort [25k?\]: its better
whendrik [12k\]: Is the mic working locally good?
Vidigiani [20k\]: almost there
Skalman [11k?\]: better
Shibuya [15k?\]: bu xing
SupRAS [11k\]: it s better
whendrik [12k\]: bit better
Shibuya [15k?\]: bu shi ta hao
erguvani [5k\]: now better
erguvani [5k\]: no
choubi [13k\]: kind of better
Shibuya [15k?\]: nui bi 
willzhang [9d\]: ok,so maybe I will type this time
Shibuya [15k?\]: niu bi
choubi [13k\]: thx for the effort
Excell2 [10k\]: :)
SupRAS [11k\]: thx
chrpa [6k\]: ok, no problem
Karamfil [14k\]: now every one QUIET please :)
willzhang [9d\]: it is not diffcult to do that
willzhang [9d\]: and thanks ,everyone
Shibuya [15k?\]: mei wen ti
SupRAS [11k\]: thx to u
willzhang [9d\]: i will give you time to make questions
willzhang [9d\]: ok start ,now
Shibuya [15k?\]: duo xia la
Karamfil [14k\]: and ask in english...
willzhang [9d\]: first ,thanks again to my lecture
fire1 [15k\]: noldu
fire1 [15k\]: dersmı ıptal
fire1 [15k\]: ıs ıt over
willzhang [9d\]: we are going to have this lecture about "Basic shapes of double approach to 4-4"
azzwort [25k?\]: no
fire1 [15k\]: ok
willzhang [9d\]: it is very common in our games
Shibuya [15k?\]: yes
willzhang [9d\]: the first thing,we  have to read about the situation here,who is stronger?
Shibuya [15k?\]: W
Excell2 [10k\]: w
azzwort [25k?\]: W
SupRAS [11k\]: w
willzhang [9d\]: cleasrly,white have 2stones ,and black only have 1
willzhang [9d\]: but also,we nee to notice that black take the corner first
azzwort [25k?\]: y is he not weak?
willzhang [9d\]: at this , we can know that the ok result should be  even
azzwort [25k?\]: oooo k
]
;B[pf]CR[pf]C[choubi [13k\]: ok
willzhang [9d\]: this move is so simple that all the beginner  like to use it
]
;W[pg]CR[pg]
;B[of]CR[of]C[willzhang [9d\]: we are going to discuss  this one today
Shibuya [15k?\]: ok
willzhang [9d\]: after this, what black want is ~~
Shibuya [15k?\]: corner?
choubi [13k\]: top
Shibuya [15k?\]: center
Sub0 [12k\]: top
azzwort [25k?\]: Q10?
fire1 [15k\]: make w weaknes
willzhang [9d\]: make his head outside,keep pressure to bothside of white,and try keep the corner points
Shibuya [15k?\]: yes
Shibuya [15k?\]: so B want corner top and outside?
ouigkmy [17k\]: isnt that too much for b to want?
fire1 [15k\]: :)
n4w3r [30k?\]: hungry
choubi [13k\]: that's just on this move
willzhang [9d\]: ok, after this ,lets what white  will do
willzhang [9d\]: i will find more useful topics
grmaster [1k?\]: I will work out all these sequences :-)
willzhang [9d\]: I will set tuesday's lecture a uesful one ,and sunday's a great one
wetnose [13k\]: thanks a lot
chrpa [6k\]: :) ok
willzhang [9d\]: the nyou will be much stronger
choubi [13k\]: thx Will
chrpa [6k\]: yes, 
willzhang [9d\]: know these sequences  is quite easy
willzhang [9d\]: but know how and when to use the mis ...
willzhang [9d\]: use them
grmaster [1k?\]: yeah it's hard to understand what is good and what is wrong
grmaster [1k?\]: in which cases
willzhang [9d\]: I have a friend
willzhang [9d\]: He can remember all the pro games
willzhang [9d\]: almost
grmaster [1k?\]: wow
chrpa [6k\]: wow !!!
willzhang [9d\]: he know a lot of josekis
grmaster [1k?\]: that's a memory!
willzhang [9d\]: still,he couldnt win me
grmaster [1k?\]: haha
willzhang [9d\]: not even a chance
grmaster [1k?\]: so great memory is not enogh?
willzhang [9d\]: because that's are all books,not his own
ouigkmy [17k\]: i hear often you should never memorize moves in go blindly
ouigkmy [17k\]: and only start studying joseki at 5kyu+
grmaster [1k?\]: well it's hard question
choubi [13k\]: people have different approaches
willzhang [9d\]: I didnt say that's bad to remmeber them
willzhang [9d\]: just try to have your own thining when you remmeber
grmaster [1k?\]: children get correct spelling when they reading a lot
choubi [13k\]: it's just not enough
Silkstream [3k\]: figuring out how to choose moves is more interesting anyways
grmaster [1k?\]: they just memorize correct spelling from books
grmaster [1k?\]: so we can do the same with Go games
Silkstream [3k\]: it's been tried with computers...
choubi [13k\]: hehe
grmaster [1k?\]: but it will not give you understanding why you can't to do somthing else
willzhang [9d\]: computer.....too hard for them
ouigkmy [17k\]: you won't know how to punish.. what the meaning is of the moves you play
chrpa [6k\]: i heard that ko makes it difficult for them to play
grmaster [1k?\]: yeah thats righ ouigkmy
choubi [13k\]: the proverb is "study joseki, gain 3 stones, memorize joseki, lose 5" ^_~
grmaster [1k?\]: this is why willzhang's lecture is so great :-)
grmaster [1k?\]: he gives wrong sequences and explains why it is wrong
willzhang [9d\]: thz :) 
choubi [13k\]: ^^
willzhang [9d\]: I just think this is want a real lesson should be
choubi [13k\]: you are right
willzhang [9d\]: also,review a real game helps a lot more
willzhang [9d\]: i dont know why people dont want to do that in  their lesson
grmaster [1k?\]: right but joseki is the thing we always use in our games ^^
willzhang [9d\]: when i was a student,i wish my teacher can review my games everyday,which is not possible :(
grmaster [1k?\]: its almost our game too
willzhang [9d\]: you dont need to know joseki to play a good game
grmaster [1k?\]: hum
ouigkmy [17k\]: joseki.. should play your own moves
willzhang [9d\]: the only thing is 
choubi [13k\]: joseki are 9 dan pro's own moves ;)
grmaster [1k?\]: joseki is like a weapon in my understanding
willzhang [9d\]: you have to know which move is for what
willzhang [9d\]: joseki is just a easy way to learn
willzhang [9d\]: coz pro play like that too
Silkstream [3k\]: anything tactically sound is probably a joseki
choubi [13k\]: need to know when a change is good though of course, not follow blindly
grmaster [1k?\]: hum
willzhang [9d\]: plays like what pros did doesnt mean you are as strong as a pro
choubi [13k\]: right
ouigkmy [17k\]: the best example is your friend :\]
willzhang [9d\]: he kows a lot of opening tricks btw
choubi [13k\]: not knowing joseki doesn't mean you are stronger though ^_~, so balance of study and play is good ?
willzhang [9d\]: i will have him make a lecture here soon,if possible :0
ouigkmy [17k\]: oh please do
willzhang [9d\]: he even tricked me serval times :0
grmaster [1k?\]: oh he is on KGS too? :-)
choubi [13k\]: hehe
chrpa [6k\]: it would be great
willzhang [9d\]: but .........I was in the trick ,He was crashed in the end :(
choubi [13k\]: hehehe
grmaster [1k?\]: :-)
grmaster [1k?\]: so good memory is not a real strength after all ^^
choubi [13k\]: go is a multi-skill game
choubi [13k\]: one go for every player
willzhang [9d\]: balance~
ouigkmy [17k\]: how many moves do you read willzhang before playing a stone? (averagely)
willzhang [9d\]: this igame shows the spirit of old chinese thinking
willzhang [9d\]: 3-5
willzhang [9d\]: rarelt 50+
willzhang [9d\]: rarely
grmaster [1k?\]: oh
ouigkmy [17k\]: ! wow 3-5 enough?
choubi [13k\]: in contact just immediate shape ?
willzhang [9d\]: when I want to finish someone in a fight
grmaster [1k?\]: 5 moves is enough  to be 10d ^^
JOC [?\]: someone once said you got to know what to read
ouigkmy [17k\]: depends which situation i guess... L&D is often 10 moves+
Silkstream [3k\]: a lot of reading is implicitly done by previous information about shapes
choubi [13k\]: yep
willzhang [9d\]: I will keep a little secret on my reading skill :)
chrpa [6k\]: no, :)
Silkstream [3k\]: :(
choubi [13k\]: we are a flock of tiny little vampires wanting to feed off your skill ^_~
choubi [13k\]: haha
chrpa [6k\]: :)
willzhang [9d\]: everybody has his own manner 
willzhang [9d\]: after you have your own ,go will be more funny for you
willzhang [9d\]: and you will seea whole new world
choubi [13k\]: I sure hope so !
choubi [13k\]: but many years of training to get there
willzhang [9d\]: that's after 1D i think :)
grmaster [1k?\]: oh so I am very close to this new world  :-)
Silkstream [3k\]: ^^
willzhang [9d\]: :)
willzhang [9d\]: I will make a club call"art of war" for all the player who like fight
grmaster [1k?\]: heh
erguvani [5k\]: cool
choubi [13k\]: is it a problem if you don't like fighting ?
chrpa [6k\]: wow
ouigkmy [17k\]: for fighting go ? :\]
Silkstream [3k\]: hmm i only like fighting if i'm going to win ;)
choubi [13k\]: same here
choubi [13k\]: haha
willzhang [9d\]: the highter level is --you have  to know when to avoid a useless fight
choubi [13k\]: yes !
chrpa [6k\]: what about making some repository of all lectures on web, willzhang?
willzhang [9d\]: avoid a fight is also a basic skill for a good fight
ouigkmy [17k\]: respository is a good idea, i can contribute some recorded lectures
willzhang [9d\]: I am doing that recently :)
Silkstream [3k\]: yes this is the first lecture i've seen would love to see the others
chrpa [6k\]: ok :), it would be very usefull
willzhang [9d\]: I forgot to record my lectures :(
chrpa [6k\]: i have this and the last one
willzhang [9d\]: with voice?
ouigkmy [17k\]: i have sunday's one ;\]
chrpa [6k\]: no, sorry
willzhang [9d\]: the last one?
ouigkmy [17k\]: and the one before
ouigkmy [17k\]: yes
willzhang [9d\]: great~
grmaster [1k?\]: the most nice thing in this lecture was I have all text comments so I can study it hard :-)
Silkstream [3k\]: i am still a text fan :)
chrpa [6k\]: yes, maybe in audio lecture someone can transcribe it to text
grmaster [1k?\]: by the way Will, did you see Kogo's joseki dictionary?
ouigkmy [17k\]: recording is very easy, everyone can do it
grmaster [1k?\]: it's sgf file with most popular joseki sequences
]
(;W[qe]CR[qe]C[Karamfil [14k\]: R15
Karamfil [14k\]: ;)
willzhang [9d\]: quite normal
Karamfil [14k\]: then osae R16
willzhang [9d\]: ok, that's about his move
]
(;B[qd]CR[qd]LB[pe:A]C[choubi [13k\]: hm
Karamfil [14k\]: now the intresting part :)
Shibuya [15k?\]: tenuki
willzhang [9d\]: bo doubt black will block
erokay [-\]: w s16?
willzhang [9d\]: maybe you will worry about his A cut
Shibuya [15k?\]: its a cut
]
(;W[pe]CR[pe]
;B[od]CR[od]
;W[oe]CR[oe]
;B[nd]CR[nd]
;W[ne]CR[ne]
;B[md]CR[md]C[azzwort [25k?\]: o14?
willzhang [9d\]: but ,it is ok for black
choubi [13k\]: ok
erokay [-\]: not bad for black
Excell2 [10k\]: forces b along line of victory
Shibuya [15k?\]: 2 stone is dead
fire1 [15k\]: o13
willzhang [9d\]: just give up that two stones
Karamfil [14k\]: 4th line terrytory s good
willzhang [9d\]: white also sacrificed his  O17
Shibuya [15k?\]: ok
willzhang [9d\]: most pros  like black 
Shibuya [15k?\]: because of sente?
azzwort [25k?\]: your black x_X
willzhang [9d\]: but ,go seigen said this is also ok for white if this influrence  in ok for white 
chrpa [6k\]: ok
]
;AE[pe]AW[pk][qp][oq]C[willzhang [9d\]: like ,if white  has a moyo here
Shibuya [15k?\]: small moyo
])
(;W[md]CR[md]LB[pe:A]C[willzhang [9d\]: so,this is the normal move for white
seiken: ko
seiken: ok
choubi [13k\]: now cut is a problem
willzhang [9d\]: aiming to the A cut and make strong his O17 stone
Karamfil [14k\]: P17 now for black
willzhang [9d\]: that the basic with this move
]
(;B[od]CR[od]C[willzhang [9d\]: if black answers here
]
;W[pb]CR[pb]
;B[qb]CR[qb]
;W[pc]CR[pc]
;B[qc]CR[qc]LB[jc:A][qj:B]C[Uberdude [8k\]: q15 better as sets up r13 cut?
fire1 [15k\]: whıch ıs better
willzhang [9d\]: no matter white plays A or B,it is not good  for black
fire1 [15k\]: a or b
erokay [-\]: not so good for black
SupRAS [11k\]: miai?
willzhang [9d\]: because black itself is not alived yet,so he is not ok to attack one side of white
fire1 [15k\]: ok
]
;W[qj]CR[qj]
;B[kd]CR[kd]
;W[mf]CR[mf])
(;B[pe]CR[pe]C[Karamfil [14k\]: P17 :)
]
;W[qi]CR[qi]TR[pe][of][pf]C[willzhang [9d\]: same thing
choubi [13k\]: forces W to settle
choubi [13k\]: not good
Karamfil [14k\]: bad shape
Uberdude [8k\]: ok
willzhang [9d\]: and bad shape here
])
(;B[oc]CR[oc]C[willzhang [9d\]: so this is the right answer
]
;W[ob]CR[ob]C[chrpa [6k\]: yes
willzhang [9d\]: if black just bloack here
]
(;B[nd]CR[nd]C[willzhang [9d\]: notice this move
]
;W[nb]CR[nb]
;B[pb]CR[pb]C[Shanti [-\]: ok
]
(;W[ne]CR[ne]C[willzhang [9d\]: dont play this 
chrpa [6k\]: ok
willzhang [9d\]: because this is always sente for white
Karamfil [14k\]: fixing blacks shape
willzhang [9d\]: and it helps to fix black's weakness inthe corner
willzhang [9d\]: keep this
]
;B[od]CR[od]C[willzhang [9d\]: if white made this exchange
]
;W[qb]CR[qb]C[willzhang [9d\]: this move will be gone
]
;B[pa]CR[pa]
;W[qc]CR[qc]
;B[rb]CR[rb]C[willzhang [9d\]: capture!
seiken: yes!
choubi [13k\]: hm
chrpa [6k\]: wow !!! tesuji
Shanti [-\]: yes
]
(;W[pc]CR[pc]C[choubi [13k\]: cool move S18
]
;B[rc]CR[rc])
(;W[rd]CR[rd]C[seiken: well :p
]
;B[rc]CR[rc])
(;W[rc]CR[rc]
;B[rd]CR[rd]C[erokay [-\]: i like s18
erokay [-\]: :)
]
;W[sb]CR[sb]
;B[ra]CR[ra]
;W[pc]CR[pc]
;B[qa]CR[qa]C[willzhang [9d\]: so:)
]))
(;W[qb]CR[qb]C[willzhang [9d\]: this is what white want
willzhang [9d\]: and ,the reason why  white play this move right now,is because
choubi [13k\]: force b to choose other side ?
willzhang [9d\]: right~
willzhang [9d\]: that's why why ,white will play here right now
choubi [13k\]: interesting
chrpa [6k\]: hmm ... interesting
willzhang [9d\]: deal with one group and make the light group even lighter
Karamfil [14k\]: normal :P
Excell2 [10k\]: ah i see
choubi [13k\]: but now b gets to choose
willzhang [9d\]: always remember , light group is easy to deal,since you can easily give it up
Shanti [-\]: why not black R17 ?
azzwort [25k?\]: y would*
]
(;B[qc]CR[qc]
;W[pa]CR[pa]
;B[rb]CR[rb]
;W[pc]CR[pc]C[Karamfil [14k\]: and both groups are strong
azzwort [25k?\]: u would white move Q17?
]
;B[od]CR[od]C[willzhang [9d\]: bad for black
Karamfil [14k\]: R10 now
willzhang [9d\]: oh, and btw
])
(;B[rd]CR[rd]LB[pa:A][qg:B]C[grmaster [1k?\]: O15 was bad move for W?
willzhang [9d\]: this is black's right move
chrpa [6k\]: yes
Shanti [-\]: pleasant ^-^
willzhang [9d\]: now ,it's white's time to choice
willzhang [9d\]: A or B
willzhang [9d\]: two weakness, give up one side
Shanti [-\]: B is bigger sin't it?
willzhang [9d\]: both ok for white ,depend on our games
Shanti [-\]: ok
]
(;W[qi]CR[qi]
;B[oa]CR[oa]
;W[lc]CR[lc]C[willzhang [9d\]: also black captured white stone in the corner,white how ever deal with both side well
choubi [13k\]: black's 4*4 stone ends up very frustrated in its utility on the board
willzhang [9d\]: this is ok for both
choubi [13k\]: or so it seems
])
(;W[pa]CR[pa]
;B[qg]CR[qg]LB[ph:C][qh:A][qi:B][qj:D]C[willzhang [9d\]: or ,this is ok for both too
willzhang [9d\]: white take one side and the corner
willzhang [9d\]: black took another side
willzhang [9d\]: sente around A-D later  for white
]
;W[qh]CR[qh])))
(;W[jc]CR[jc]
;B[pi]CR[pi]
;W[qb]CR[qb]
;B[rd]CR[rd]
;W[pa]CR[pa]
;B[nh]CR[nh]TR[jc]C[choubi [13k\]: exchange
choubi [13k\]: hm
chrpa [6k\]: s16 very interesting
willzhang [9d\]: bo matter white pay a move to which side,black will go to attack another
willzhang [9d\]: attack the weaker group
choubi [13k\]: so in this joseki W loses one side almost entirely ?
willzhang [9d\]: yes
choubi [13k\]: wow
Shanti [-\]: is it a joseki ? O_O
Karamfil [14k\]: yes
willzhang [9d\]: and this marked stone is not so useful now
Excell2 [10k\]: r18 is correct for w?
fire1 [15k\]: so black ıs happy
choubi [13k\]: what else ?
fire1 [15k\]: rıght
Karamfil [14k\]: adn black is 3 stones ahead :)
willzhang [9d\]: I am telling you what's the meaning in all these josekis
Shanti [-\]: ... white has a very expensive sente.
seiken: o 15 for W , and p13 after, o 14 no ?
willzhang [9d\]: if you dont know the meaning of all these moves,you will never know a joseki
choubi [13k\]: right
willzhang [9d\]: ok,back this shape
willzhang [9d\]: this marked stone is not so useful now,because whit eis already alived in the corner
])
(;W[qj]CR[qj]C[chrpa [6k\]: i see
]
;B[kd]CR[kd]
;W[qb]CR[qb]
;B[pa]CR[pa]
;W[qc]CR[qc]
;B[pc]CR[pc]
;W[rd]CR[rd]
;B[le]CR[le]TR[qj]C[willzhang [9d\]: so did this one
choubi [13k\]: so why play it ?
]))
(;B[pb]CR[pb]C[choubi [13k\]: q18 would be bad for b
]
;W[od]CR[od]
;B[pc]CR[pc]
;W[qi]CR[qi]LB[jc:A][pe:B]C[willzhang [9d\]: white can take A or B later
willzhang [9d\]: so that white settled bothside well
willzhang [9d\]: not ok for black
])))
(;W[kc]CR[kc]C[Karamfil [14k\]: O16 :)
willzhang [9d\]: or ,this is another option for white
choubi [13k\]: hm
]
(;B[nd]CR[nd]
;W[oc]CR[oc]
;B[od]CR[od]
;W[qj]CR[qj]
;B[pb]CR[pb]
;W[hc]CR[hc]C[Karamfil [14k\]: i see :)
Karamfil [14k\]: thanks
willzhang [9d\]: not good for black
chrpa [6k\]: yes
choubi [13k\]: too easy for W
willzhang [9d\]: white is fast and good shape
])
(;B[oc]CR[oc]
;W[nd]CR[nd]
;B[pe]CR[pe]
;W[qi]LB[kc:A][qi:B]C[willzhang [9d\]: this is the right move for both side
willzhang [9d\]: black got a ok corner and white dealed with his two groups
willzhang [9d\]: also we can see these two groups are not so alived yet
]
;AE[kc]AB[ic][qk]C[willzhang [9d\]: after this pincer,they feel a little unhappy
choubi [13k\]: so W usually owes a move after this exchange ?
willzhang [9d\]: notice this is ok for us
willzhang [9d\]: just a little unhappy,but how to attack them is your problem in a real game :)
choubi [13k\]: hehe
]))
(;W[qj]CR[qj]C[willzhang [9d\]: or ,the third option for white
willzhang [9d\]: enstrong one side first
]
(;B[kc]CR[kc]C[willzhang [9d\]: and if black wants fight
]
;W[md]CR[md]
(;B[od]CR[od]C[willzhang [9d\]: now black has to play this move
Shanti [-\]: ok. ok.
]
(;W[le]CR[le]C[willzhang [9d\]: notice, this is the right shape her efor white
willzhang [9d\]: a little slow but powerful
]
;B[je]CR[je]C[willzhang [9d\]: so ,this is a ok fight for both side
])
(;W[mf]CR[mf]C[Shanti [-\]: right shape ? isn't id dead ?
Shanti [-\]: ok
]
;B[le]CR[le]
;W[me]CR[me]
;B[ng]CR[ng]C[willzhang [9d\]: this is not a good shape for white
])
(;W[ke]CR[ke]C[Karamfil [14k\]: :P
]
;B[id]CR[id]
;W[mf]CR[mf]
;B[ng]CR[ng]C[willzhang [9d\]: this one looks like a good shape
Karamfil [14k\]: but?
Shanti [-\]: =)
chrpa [6k\]: black stronger on top
willzhang [9d\]: but white helped black to have a good shape both side first to make this shape
Shanti [-\]: ok
Karamfil [14k\]: aha
Karamfil [14k\]: i see thanks
willzhang [9d\]: help your enemy  with a great shape to make yourself a good shape
willzhang [9d\]: at this time your shape is not so good
Shanti [-\]: =s
Excell2 [10k\]: not cool
willzhang [9d\]: pro even make themself a bad shape to let their enemy have a worse shape
Karamfil [14k\]: haahha :D
fire1 [15k\]: :)
chrpa [6k\]: :)
grmaster [1k?\]: :-)
Shanti [-\]: héhé
seiken: ù_ù
willzhang [9d\]: no matter how ugly your shape is ,if it is a better than your ennmy's ,then it is a good shape
willzhang [9d\]: :)
]))
(;B[oc]CR[oc]C[Karamfil [14k\]: isnt p17 better again
]
;W[od]CR[od]
;B[pe]CR[pe]
;W[pc]CR[pc]
;B[qg]CR[qg]
;W[rg]CR[rg]
;B[qh]CR[qh]
;W[rh]CR[rh]C[willzhang [9d\]: R13 cut is not aviable
chrpa [6k\]: hmm, such a small difference, and all changed
]))
(;B[oc]CR[oc]
;W[nd]CR[nd]
;B[pe]CR[pe]
;W[kc]CR[kc]C[willzhang [9d\]: and this will be same
])
(;B[jc]CR[jc]C[willzhang [9d\]: and this one
willzhang [9d\]: showed in a pro game onece
willzhang [9d\]: what ever ,this move is rare
Excell2 [10k\]: lol
]
(;W[pb]CR[pb]
;B[lc]CR[lc]
;W[mc]CR[mc]C[Shanti [-\]: why not to cut black ?
]
;B[ld]CR[ld]
;W[ne]CR[ne]
;B[od]CR[od]C[Karamfil [14k\]: wow
Karamfil [14k\]: n15 :)
willzhang [9d\]: no cut ,always,if you dont want to sacrifice your O17
]
;W[rb]CR[rb]
;B[rc]CR[rc]
;W[qc]CR[qc]
;B[re]CR[re]
;W[sc]CR[sc]
;B[rd]CR[rd]
;W[qg]CR[qg]C[seiken: o13
]
;B[me]CR[me]
;W[nh]CR[nh]C[willzhang [9d\]: this is where they end with
Karamfil [14k\]: wow fighting joseki
willzhang [9d\]: locally ok for both
]
;B[]
(;W[nf]CR[nf]C[chrpa [6k\]: ok
]
;B[nd]CR[nd]
;W[md]CR[md]
;B[ob]CR[ob]
;W[oc]CR[oc]
;B[pc]CR[pc]C[willzhang [9d\]: no cut  here
grmaster [1k?\]: nice
])
(;W[nd]CR[nd]
;B[nf]CR[nf]
;W[mf]CR[mf]
;B[mg]CR[mg]
;W[lf]CR[lf]
;B[lg]CR[lg]C[willzhang [9d\]: and this fight is not ok for white now
]))
(;W[pe]CR[pe]
;B[od]CR[od]C[Shanti [-\]: ok ::s
]
;W[oe]CR[oe]
;B[nd]CR[nd]
;W[ne]CR[ne]
;B[md]CR[md]C[willzhang [9d\]: :)
Shanti [-\]: ah, ok :s 
])))
(;W[ob]CR[ob]LB[pe:A]C[willzhang [9d\]: and here ,i will shoe you some fun move
Karamfil [14k\]: ++
willzhang [9d\]: this kind of move ,we call it "move looking for change
willzhang [9d\]: show
willzhang [9d\]: looks like A will be ok for white
willzhang [9d\]: so ,if black want to fix it
]
(;B[nd]CR[nd]C[willzhang [9d\]: this move is not flexible
]
;W[od]CR[od]
;B[pe]CR[pe]
;W[qi]CR[qi]
;B[md]CR[md]
;W[kc]CR[kc]C[willzhang [9d\]: white deal with both side easily
willzhang [9d\]: not ok for black
])
(;B[od]CR[od]LB[lc:A][pi:B]C[willzhang [9d\]: this is the correct answer
willzhang [9d\]: A or B two good attack places later
grmaster [1k?\]: but B looses corner himself?
willzhang [9d\]: the corner is no longer big
grmaster [1k?\]: I see
willzhang [9d\]: it is small for both side now
]
;W[qb]CR[qb]C[willzhang [9d\]: pointless
grmaster [1k?\]: yup I see
]))
(;W[og]CR[og]C[Karamfil [14k\]: O13 
willzhang [9d\]: another funny move
Karamfil [14k\]: :D
]
(;B[ng]CR[ng]
;W[nh]CR[nh]
;B[mg]CR[mg]
;W[mh]CR[mh]C[Karamfil [14k\]: hmm
Karamfil [14k\]: this walking is not good
]
;B[lg]CR[lg]
;W[lh]CR[lh]
;B[kg]CR[kg]
;W[kh]CR[kh]
;B[jg]CR[jg]C[willzhang [9d\]: we need to know one thing
willzhang [9d\]: if surronding changes ,one move may not still good or bad anymore
]
(;W[pb]CR[pb]C[Karamfil [14k\]: ara ara
Excell2 [10k\]: now w can cut?
]
;B[nd]CR[nd]
;W[mc]CR[mc]
;B[kc]CR[kc]
;W[rc]CR[rc]
;B[rd]CR[rd]
;W[rb]CR[rb]C[willzhang [9d\]: new shape
willzhang [9d\]: almost ok for both side
Karamfil [14k\]: ift the bottom right corner is white... :)
willzhang [9d\]: we can try this in our games :)
chrpa [6k\]: hmm,..
]
(;AW[pp]AB[dd][oh][qh]C[KiMiGo [-\]: almost?
Karamfil [14k\]: but i still dont like all sthi wallking...
ouigkmy [17k\]: isnt is better for w ?
willzhang [9d\]: almost ==hard to say,should  see it in a real certain game
KiMiGo [-\]: ok ^^
])
(;B[oh]CR[oh]
;W[qh]CR[qh]
;B[oi]CR[oi]
;W[qj]CR[qj]
;B[ok]CR[ok]C[willzhang [9d\]: white is not very strong outside
willzhang [9d\]: :)
]))
(;W[pe]CR[pe]C[KiMiGo [-\]: looks weird to me
]
;B[oe]CR[oe]
;W[od]CR[od]
;B[qg]CR[qg]C[Karamfil [14k\]: ...
Excell2 [10k\]: ah
]
;W[rg]CR[rg]
;B[qh]CR[qh]TR[og][pg]C[Karamfil [14k\]: wow
Excell2 [10k\]: ok thanks
willzhang [9d\]: situation changes
willzhang [9d\]: these two stones are too heavy now
Excell2 [10k\]: yes
]))
(;B[nd]CR[nd]C[willzhang [9d\]: or ,black can choose this one
]
;W[ng]CR[ng]
;B[oc]CR[oc]C[willzhang [9d\]: big corner vs strong outside
willzhang [9d\]: almost ok for both side
willzhang [9d\]: s
])))
(;B[od]CR[od]
;W[rc]CR[rc]C[Karamfil [14k\]: no tenuki is not good
choubi [13k\]: p16 is the correct move
Excell2 [10k\]: no
Karamfil [14k\]: p6 is in whites favour
Karamfil [14k\]: *p16
willzhang [9d\]: this is so not acceptable for black
]))
(;W[qd]CR[qd]C[willzhang [9d\]: last move we are going to see today
willzhang [9d\]: this one,try to share the corner
]
(;B[qc]CR[qc]
;W[qe]CR[qe]
;B[pc]CR[pc]
;W[qj]CR[qj]LB[nc:A][nd:A]C[willzhang [9d\]: hard for black to attack A
willzhang [9d\]: since ther eis a cut point
willzhang [9d\]: and corner was limited ,not big anymore
Karamfil [14k\]: hmm isnt R15 better than R17?
])
(;B[qe]CR[qe]C[willzhang [9d\]: yes
willzhang [9d\]: this is almost the only answer
]
;W[re]CR[re]
;B[pe]CR[pe]C[grmaster [1k?\]: R15 looks like joseki ^^
]
(;W[rg]CR[rg]
;B[qc]CR[qc]
(;W[rd]CR[rd]C[Shanti [-\]: ok, and O17 ?
Karamfil [14k\]: now black can attack :)
]
(;B[og]CR[og]
;W[ph]CR[ph]
;B[kc]CR[kc]C[willzhang [9d\]: ye
Excell2 [10k\]: is q17 big?
willzhang [9d\]: O17 is kind of big for white to sacrifice
fishball [-\]: yes
fishball [-\]: but not now
willzhang [9d\]: Q17 is very big ,but not now
seiken: ?
grmaster [1k?\]: but did B get any compensation?
willzhang [9d\]: so, it is hard for bothside  now
willzhang [9d\]: strong outsdie
grmaster [1k?\]: is it better to play S17 or P13 ?
grmaster [1k?\]: I saw sometimes S17 move in high dan games
]
(;W[pc]CR[pc]
;B[oc]CR[oc]
;W[pb]CR[pb]C[Shanti [-\]: when ?
]
;B[ob]CR[ob]
;W[qb]CR[qb]
;B[nd]CR[nd]C[fishball [-\]: 24point
])
(;W[]C[choubi [13k\]: 24 ????
Excell2 [10k\]: so as soon as o17 acts as no aji anymore, q17 is played?
]
(;B[le]CR[le]
;W[pc]CR[pc]C[willzhang [9d\]: after M15
willzhang [9d\]: but....black will never play M15
grmaster [1k?\]: right
Silkstream [3k\]: what about Q18?  can W make life?
])
(;B[])
(;B[dp]CR[dp]
;W[pb]CR[pb]
;B[pc]CR[pc]
;W[qb]CR[qb]
;B[rc]CR[rc]
;W[rb]CR[rb]
;B[sb]CR[sb]LB[ph:A]C[willzhang [9d\]: lived very small
willzhang [9d\]: and hurt A group a bit
willzhang [9d\]: white dont have much points by now
]
;W[cn]CR[cn]
;B[qk]CR[qk]C[willzhang [9d\]: this move almost sente now
willzhang [9d\]: or
]
;W[]
;B[sf]CR[sf]
;W[rf]CR[rf]
;B[qi]CR[qi]
;W[qh]CR[qh]
;B[ri]CR[ri]
;W[rh]CR[rh]C[willzhang [9d\]: another small group
willzhang [9d\]: painful for white
grmaster [1k?\]: :-)
willzhang [9d\]: pain is usually worse for a pro than die
Silkstream [3k\]: ok :)
Shanti [-\]: but the black group could stay death if he doesn't escape, couldn't he ?
])))
(;B[oc]CR[oc]C[willzhang [9d\]: another choice for black
willzhang [9d\]: keep P13
]
;W[]
;B[qh]CR[qh]
;W[qg]CR[qg]
;B[qj]CR[qj]C[willzhang [9d\]: keep this
chrpa [6k\]: i see
]))
(;W[og]CR[og]
;B[rd]CR[rd]
;W[mg]CR[mg]C[willzhang [9d\]: this is also ok for white sometimes
willzhang [9d\]: big outside
willzhang [9d\]: we can see that ,everything is possible in a game if it is reasonble
grmaster [1k?\]: :-)
]))
(;W[rd]CR[rd]C[willzhang [9d\]: sometimes even this
]
;AE[qd]AW[dp][fp]C[willzhang [9d\]: if this ladder is ok for white
])))
(;W[re]CR[re]C[willzhang [9d\]: this is ok too
]
;B[qe]CR[qe]
(;W[qd]CR[qd]C[willzhang [9d\]: back
])
(;W[rf]CR[rf]C[willzhang [9d\]: or
]
;B[qc]CR[qc]
;W[kc]CR[kc]C[willzhang [9d\]: ok for both
willzhang [9d\]: ok ,that;s all today
grmaster [1k?\]: thank you very much Will ^^
grmaster [1k?\]: nice lecture
ouigkmy [17k\]: thank you for the lecture
seiken: thx
erguvani [5k\]: thank you very much
willzhang [9d\]: a small part of this  double approach to 4-4"
Excell2 [10k\]: yes thank you
Silkstream [3k\]: thank you great!
chrpa [6k\]: thank you for a good lesson :)
martinzinz [19k\]: thx
willzhang [9d\]: we will have another 2 lecture with this topic
grmaster [1k?\]: oh cool
kilroy [5k\]: thanks
Excell2 [10k\]: when will these be?
willzhang [9d\]: i will fix my voice stuff nmext time :)
Karamfil [14k\]: hmm
willzhang [9d\]: same time next week
Karamfil [14k\]: ehh
chrpa [6k\]: yeah, this is also good so we can replay it again
erokay [-\]: thank you
seiken: you are the best CAT ! euh  :p teatcher
seiken: bybye ;)
choubi [13k\]: thx !
Karamfil [14k\]: i though there would be something about O17 at O16 :)
willzhang [9d\]: and also ,"36 stratagems" on sunday
choubi [13k\]: one thing at a time Karamfil
chrpa [6k\]: sunday this time, ?
willzhang [9d\]: hope this lecture is useful to you guys
choubi [13k\]: very useful
willzhang [9d\]: so,use the min your game s :)
chrpa [6k\]: sure, we will try :)
willzhang [9d\]: suprise  your opponent ans crash them
willzhang [9d\]: and
Karamfil [14k\]: ahh
grmaster [1k?\]: it was extremly usefull for me :-)
Karamfil [14k\]: thanks willzhang :D
grmaster [1k?\]: I had so many questions about this shape ^^
chrpa [6k\]: you are very kind to us, thank you
willzhang [9d\]: keep an eye on this room's info,thank you again~ ( help me spread  this lecture)
Karamfil [14k\]: yeah i wanted to see O17 at O16
chrpa [6k\]: can I ask you, will be some other tsumego problems?
choubi [13k\]: that's another lecture
])))
(;B[pd]CR[pd]C[willzhang [9d\]: we all know that ,who takes the corner first who will reviev a advantage in that corner
Shibuya [15k?\]: yes
fire1 [15k\]: ok
willzhang [9d\]: so,black is not so weak here 
]))
